Eve Teasing or Bird Watching? Its just a matter of perspective.
A friend posted an entry in his blog which elicited a violent response from me. Since, I wanted to spare him the ordeal of dealing with a 3 page comment, I am posting it here.
Arvind's Post: http://anomalizer.livejournal.com/135517.html
If he had just given me the text of his above post, without a hint of who posted it, I could have told you it was written by a man.
Women who grow up in India face all those issues daily. And yes, looking is an issue. Its different from staring. It entails men looking at your breasts and talking. It means understanding that the person in front of you might be talking to you about the weather or about his parents but half his brain is dedicated to imagining how you look naked. How your breasts might feel if he touched them.
It's not just breasts. Imagine the impact on school girls wearing skirts and talking to people twice their age and realizing that these men, these men who are their father's age, who they call uncle or sir, are thinking about sex with them. They might not say it, they might not do it, but their body language is clear enough.
And of course, in our society, most of the time it is considered the woman's fault. Why was she wearing a skirt? If she has big boobs, she should wear a chunni.
So, yes, looking is a problem.
But then again, I am not going to say that it is a huge problem. It is also, to some extent, in a limited way, flattering. It would be good if women were empowered with knowledge. If they knew that its wrong of men to do that. Not just accept it as part of the culture.
When you grow up with any negative in a society, it becomes a part of you. It is not a problem because that is just how things are. As I said, some take it as flattering. It becomes such a part of you that if men stop looking at you, you wonder if something is wrong.
But then, when is it normal for you to let them stare at you, look at you and fantasize about you? When do you make them stop? When do you stand up and say, "Please do not look at me. If you do, I am going to make you hurt"? Do you let them brush against you while walking? Do you ignore them when they say "kya maal hai!" (As in, what a fuckable thing!)? Do you just move away without crying out loud if they put their hand up your skirt in a crowded bus? When you don't know if it was that uncle or that Sadhu or that kid who lives down the street? Do you let them try and kiss you when you are home alone 'cause you can't tell anyone? Where do you draw the line?
So, yes, again, looking is a problem.
The solution is only knowledge. It is just letting that 5th standard girl know that she should say NO. That even though she has seen her elder sister walk by such people with her head down, she should not do that.
It is also about knowledge for these eve teasers. A lot of these men are not really bad (But then no one really is). That 17 year old kid needs to understand that when hanging out with his friends, it is not a cool thing to go 'bird watching'. That it just makes them mild molesters. That 25 year old needs to know that it is OK to fantasize about women in porn magazines but it is not ok to look at their friends or colleagues or students or friend's relatives and think about them naked.
I don't know who started this, but whoever it was, s/he is pretty smart:
http://blanknoiseproject.blogspot.com/
posted by EntrepreneurNI at 12:44 AM
9 Comments:
And now I come to your home territory...
Request #1: Hold off the violence!
Don't give me the "all or nothing"; popularly known as "either you are with us or your are against us" punchline.
Request #2: I'd like to see a more logical flow of reasoning.
For eg: You seem to say these things in sequence: "men ogle", "men blame women for letting them to be ogled upon", "the blame is incorrect", "hence ogling is bad". You could have just said ogling causes discomfort and I would have given it to you. The remaining circus was unwarranted. And as far as my stance on blaming women goes, you might read what I had to say here: http://tanvisirari.blogspot.com/2006/12/moral-policing-women-media-and.html Again, that was not specifically about looking. It was a more general problem, and I'd give to you on that one too. In fact, blank noise project has been very mature in pointed out that apparel has little bearing as far perversions of men go. I'd give that to them too. Another fine example is calling the problems in question problems of "Women who grow up in India". Though I am not much of a globetrotter, I can say some degree of confidence that the problem is neither a pecularity of India not that of "growing up women".
I have been at coffee shops with women who look at a guy at the next table and make comments (to themselves, i.e limited to the table we are) about the man. There have been cases where those comments made me a little uncomfortable. What did not happen was the ladies making a comment to the guy. Heck, I have even heard of women say "I saw this guy, he was so hot, I wanted to be the mother of his child". What would you make of that?
Request #3: We are not the Vatican. We are normal people. Let us not be pretentious and deny basic things like opposite sexes attract. We were wired that way.
We also chose to be civilized. Hopefully, we argee on two things: (1) opposites attract (2) any sort of non consentual advances are unacceptable.
The grey area in my opinion is non advances that could potentially has associated discomforting thoughts. Not every look might be as malicious. It may as simple as "hmm preety face" and two seconds later my priority might be to focus back on the road I was crossing since I am not a big fan of being hit by a truck. Again, I shall not take the stance of "since all looks are not malicious, no look should should be considered malicious". Clearly some are, some aren't. Both men and women do it. Maybe men do it more and to top it all off are not even subtle about it. Maybe ignorance (of being looked at) is bliss. I do acknowledge that it is uncomfortable at times to realize that someone is gazing at you. But as you said, there is also the flattery angle to it. That being said, I think it would be hard to make unqualified remarks about looking: sometimes they are malicious, sometimes they are not, sometimes they are welcome, sometimes they are not.
The problem of where you draw the line is a very interesting one. That being said, I am still willing to spar with you if you suggest that groper, foricble kisser, lewd comment maker etc etc fall in the same bucket as gazer.
My closing remark is that don't mix something that is grey with something that is black and white. And more importantly, if you think someone is leaning towards what you consider unaccpetable in the grey areas, don't assume that the person in question is not with you even in the black and white areas. That in my opinion is a very very bad thing to do which will "elicit a violent response from me" :-)
Off topic footnote: I never understood what made you go ballistic and write all that you wrote. I wouldn't be as disturbed as I hadn't said all that you said under the banner of "in response to anomalizer's comment". Why do I have to be told "men blame women for the bad men do and that is incoorect" or "eve teasing is bad"? Maybe what I had to say prompted you to speak about that problem at large and I am ok with that. If not, and it was indeed directed towards me, read on... Had we been stangers, or even for that matter mere accquaintances, I would have let you go. But we are not, and hence I feel a need to defend myself within reasonable limits. I do not appreciate having to take a stance on things that I did not comment about. There is this entire business of "men do blah and think it is correct". I've repeatadly have to say: hey wait a minute, I am actually with you, a lot of those things that you say which "men think are ok" but are not, I also think you are right. My last request would be that going forward whem making such posts, mark off areas that are meant to be in response to what I say. Also try keep the "I think anomalizer believes" and "I think men at large believe" sections separate. No one enjoys being misrepresented.
Why befuddle the reader by discussing things like the 'kya maal hai' talk? Things that are already condemned by everyone?
The issue here is about looking and staring. It would be nice if one doesn't veer off the debate with such impertinent diversions.
1) Full apologies for misrepresentation. There is no black and white in my viewpoint. My first line about your post being written by a man points towards not understanding the minor differences in the issue. I can see how it could be read differently. I apologize.
The very fact that you were reading that stuff and posting about it speaks loads of you.
In fact, it was more of an acknowledgment. :)
2) I still stand by everything I have written.
a)As I wrote on your blog, its not what you do but how and why you do it.
For example, I am going to say: "Killing is bad."
Everyone will agree with me.
But is it bad if it were self-defence? No, its not.
Its not what you do but how you do it. Looking/ touching by themselves are not wrong. Its how you look. Its how you touch.
b)The groping, the touching etc are very pertinent to the discussion. Just standing by itself, looking is a joke. Its uncomfortable, but its the same as getting a couple of blank phone calls.
When viewed with all these other issues, is when looking becomes just one step closer to them.
How do i know that this stranger who is looking at me in a cafe is not going to follow me out?
Its this feeling of always being on the look out. It comes normally to most Indian women but is it really 'normal'?
3) And Karthik, other points will be brought in. This is not an attempt to veer you away from the point. It is to make you understand the background. It is to make you see why looking is bad even if it is mildly 'bad'. Again, as i said before, it is just one step away from all those other things.
4) I never take these issues as a men vs women problem. All my arguments can easily be applied to women.
I can say some degree of confidence that the problem is neither a pecularity of India not that of "growing up women"
Of all the places I have been, it is definitely a problem of India. I have not been to africa or middle east. But I can say that in the degree of intensity, India tops the list.
And from what I have read/heard about the middle east, women are pretty safe there. Groping results in a hand being cut off and rape results in a death penalty.
(And before you jump on me again, I do not conform to the above beliefs)
Are you implying that both the sexes ought to dress in attires reminiscent of the burkha? Talibanisation ?
What's wrong in simply looking at people? Have you ever paused to think that there is a biological explanation as to why people look at each other in that manner?
I might fully agree with you, and even resolve myself to restraining myself from looking at the next random chick descending from the elevator. But I rather doubt if I'll be able to do it. I would have already looked at her, even before my righteous brain instructs me not to look at her.
So we are, in effect, discussing something that comes so naturally to us as humans that it is best if we just get along, and even better if we attach too much importance to it.
Of course, the slander and the wretched jokes and the ones that use it must be denounced.
But to attach too much importance to looking would be stretching it a bit too far.
Thanks for sharing the website Surabhi, it's very interesting. As a woman, I've been eve-teased often enough and instead of getting immune to it, I still felt dirty when it happened.
Honestly, its happened much less in the US, although there have been a few instances.
To appreciate beauty is human nature; there are people I find attractive, it doesn't have to always be sexual. How you `look' at a person sometimes reflects on how you feel about them. The problem is when you view women as `sex objects'. I truly believe that respect for women is the issue. If you don't have respect for the opp. sex, derogatory looks are just one part way you'd react to them.
Thanks Meg!
Karthik,
Please go back and read my arguments without any prejudice. That will answer most of your concerns.
hmmmm.
Well have read a few posts on this "TOPIC"! and even followed some on the "Project Site"
Being a man ( and nearly a direct victom in the post) i have tried to reason out at more times than one, to the WHY of this!!
There have been times when I have found my own-self ogling at known and unknown , attractive and un-attractive women!
I have tried to reason out who in me is bringing out or where in me are these emotions, thoughts coming from?
Is it a part of un-controlled flow of chemicals( read hormones), which is causing these thoughts
Is it an extapolation/ imagination of what? Desires? Why?
One of the lame reasons I come across is the Skewed Sex ratio of the world!Leading to skewed desires.. or no!?
Then Comes the ill-defined, ill-understood "Society"!!
how would u define it??
Right or wrong?
If you find time I would really want you to look up "the Naked Ape" series authored by Desmond Morris.
You will get a really amazing insight why's and wherefores of these desires!!!
the "Logical"-"reasoning" of these actions of ogling and fantasising!!
The fine line between, wants/desries and Heat of the moment!!
"HEAT" of the moment
----
Its a debate that I would like to have ..
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